obediences: (pic#13015449)
luther "the big shy one" hargreeves | #00.01 ([personal profile] obediences) wrote2019-03-28 10:51 am

mask or menace | ic contact.

☂ text • audio • video • action ☂




THE HARGREEVES:

by_candlelight: (Default)

[personal profile] by_candlelight 2020-04-20 07:19 am (UTC)(link)
[ Ruby takes some time to think on this, about ten minutes to be precise. She wants to give him an accurate response. ]

I think I should feel worse than I do.

Don't get me wrong, it hurts some way to know that I am not only capable of making that bad of a decision, but that somewhere I DID. But at the same time this-me can't really do anything about that, so it feels like a far enough away issue that being upset about it takes trying to be upset.

I've known that I'm capable of great evil for a long time. I did a lot of awful things to stay alive before, and depending on the circumstances I'd do them again. That said, the thing that really feels bad is that that-me was basically hopeless. It's a lot to explain, but she was grabbed less than two weeks out from leaving our world. I think that it was that simple and not just a case of bad decisions is what gets me.

How about you? You were younger than you are now.
by_candlelight: (Default)

[personal profile] by_candlelight 2020-04-21 03:53 am (UTC)(link)
[ She reads his message over, and gives it some thought. ]

You grew up in a highly regimented place, right? I can see how it would be inviting. You're taken from your own world, from a life where everything is digested before it even reaches you, where everything is consistent except the things that would hurt you and the world, and then you're thrust into a world where the closest thing to what you had back home is the military.

Of course you're going to choose what you know. I'm making a few leaps here based on stuff you've said, and how you act, but I'd guess that most of the time if something was unfamiliar it wasn't allowed to become familiar with it outside of as a way to combat it. If that's so, it's even less of a wonder that things ended up as they did. It's not like you'd been trained to think outside the box, or recognise being used or anything like that.

[ To her some of these were large leaps - she'd never had real confirmation that he hadn't really been allowed to experience life outside the walls of his training, but she knew how that was. The sorts of habits people formed. There were moments when she recognised his own helplessness over certain social situations in herself, how they both seemed to be winging it and failing to get off the ground.

There were, of course, a lot of things that could lead to that - some of the kids in the forge had been like that before they came to the cult, and in a few cases it was just a natural awkwardness or a side effect of having been unable to afford to go to social functions - but with how he talked about how he hadn't been allowed to have any fun, and how play was not an option, it wasn't that far of a leap to come to the conclusion he wasn't allowed to learn how to do a whole lot of things.

(She wondered if he felt just as isolated in crowds as she did, if he also had a hard time finding people he could relate to, not just 'predict') ]
by_candlelight: (Default)

CW: Child abuse and murder, implied torture.

[personal profile] by_candlelight 2020-04-22 04:05 am (UTC)(link)
[ And really, though she didn't know for sure, or really have any idea of just how much, she did get it. She understood quite well how this sort of thing went. She'd been basically locked up inside of safehouses for most of her life before being kidnapped, having been trained in various ways day and night to take over her father's legacy.

It was only once she ended up in a cult, and figured out she needed to question things to survive, that she started to explore her own thoughts on how the world worked, and to question nearly everything she'd been taught up to that point. She was surrounded every day by other children who had been taught not to think for themselves, who were sometimes murdered for the activity, and just as often damaged in a number of other ways. Even she, someone who had all but mastered the ability to pretend she hadn't a single original thought outside of field tactics, had found herself on the other end of knives and flames and other instruments of punishment for even the slightest perception of individuality outside of what suited the cult.

She found it easy to conceptualise things similar to her own upbringing. ]


Sometimes. But I think they misunderstand. I'm just extrapolating things from what I have experienced or witnessed others experience. Keeping in mind that I had to make, simulations, I guess, of the people around me to survive, and just do that out of habit for the people I meet, it seems less like insight and more like educated guessing.

[ Because god help her if she ever acknowledged that her way of experiencing people and interacting with them was in any way positive. She might have to start thinking of herself as something akin to an actual person. ]
by_candlelight: (Default)

[personal profile] by_candlelight 2020-04-26 04:49 am (UTC)(link)
My experiences do give me a leg up in a few ways. Like, if you ever need advice on what to do if you're in a cult I've got a few suggestions from personal experience. Mind you my bias is 'murder the leaders' prone.

[ She thinks she's hilarious, thanks. ]

In the end, everyone has capacity for evil. What's alarming is how easy it can be to fall into it, to just fall in line and accept what someone tells you.

I think it's important to explain that things like cults, they find you at your weakest and they pretend to take you in, pretend to be something you need. They pretend that you're someone they value, that you're worthy of their trust and respect. They tell you that you can do good, can be good, so long as you're with them. They pretend that your values and theirs align.

You were taken in so easily, were made to believe it was a good idea to listen to these new people so easily, because they acted in a way to fill a need you had. A need for guidance and rules and structure. Maybe even a need for someone to tell you what to do.

I know I had a similar need when I was first brought into The Forge. My life had been pretty regulated, too. And when I was there in the new setting I would have panicked if the Leader hadn't given me activities to do, people to listen to. Going from a place with strict rules with dire consequences to one with invisible rules with dire consequences would have been the death of me had I not had those little hints here and there, and the words of the Leader to point me towards who he thought was a good cultist, who I could learn from and obey in his absence.

You don't seem like you'd have coped very well without someone to tell you what to do. Er, no offence. It's just, based of the information I have now, you seem like you're someone who needs some form of direction or you flounder. I'm the same way, I just have my whole stupid code of ethics thing to guide me when all else fails, and that only came after I realised my lack of ethics meant the Leader could turn me into something I didn't want to be. You didn't really get the chance for any sort of revelation like that.
by_candlelight: (Default)

[personal profile] by_candlelight 2020-04-27 12:15 am (UTC)(link)
Everyone has value, because society in its ideal state is the greatest good of humanity and everyone can contribute value. Value in this case has nothing to do with monetary value, but with benefits conferred to those around them. The ability to be happy, an ability nearly everyone has, inherently confers value to someone, which leads back to 'everyone has value'. Those who lack the ability to be happy, like myself, are capable of contributing in other ways. Contributions can be as simple as merely existing, an act which can make others feel happiness.

[ She's not going to mention that she doesn't think that contribution is so easy for her, that would require acknowledging the cognitive dissonance that is her self-worth. ]

Even if someone is contributing negatively, they can at some point contribute positively instead. This means that, so long as someone isn't greatly damaging others, like say a cult leader bent on world domination or a terrorist organization, it would be detracting value from the world to simply kill someone for any reason not related to the preserving of lives or some other form of serious harm reduction.

All living beings have a right to take what actions they need to keep themselves alive. While this does not mean they cannot be criticised or punished for these actions by society, or that the actions were just, a being is not necessarily contributing negatively if their actions are in defense of their own life. Killing to protect yourself is an understandable action, even when it is not an accepted action.

In my case, the end goal for myself is to:
1. Maximise my positive contributions to the world around me.
2. Minimise my negative contributions to the world around me.
3. Take whatever reasonable actions I can to help society towards its ideal form.

The ideal form of society is to create a system that is capable of sustaining all living within it with minimal damage to the planet. In an ideal society there aren't people who can be easily preyed upon, not because those who would be vulnerable in our current world do not exist, but because there are safety networks that provide protections against such things. (Realistically I am aware that a 100% success rate is impossible. I still believe it is a goal to be worked towards) People are not seen as more or less valuable to society based on their contributions, the fact that they contribute - an action that, again, can be carried out simply by existing - is enough and quantity is not called into the equation.

In an ideal society, health, wealth, and the ability or lack thereof to work is not a barrier to health, happiness, and a life lived with basic dignity. An ideal society doesn't leave people in the dust for any reason, it provides them with what they need to pick themselves up when they are able and supports them in the mean time. An ideal society contributes to the happiness of its people, rather than detracts from it.

Happiness is one of the goals of society because it aids everyone. Happiness makes people more generous, helpful, and productive. Happy people are more likely to seek better education which will allow them to better contribute to the world. Happy people are more likely to spend time with their kids and raise them to also be happy. Happy people are more likely to notice someone who isn't happy and reach out to help them. Happiness that doesn't depend on other people being seen as lesser beings in some manner is important because it contributes to a better society, and so such happiness is a core goal.

In an ideal society, those who contribute the most to the functioning of society reap benefits for their service, rather than being seen as less valuable than, say, any random CEO. An ideal society is not defined by its wealth, but by its ability to take care of its people and to limit suffering.

[ To her these things all make sense. She had been a child who saw value only in how people could be used, and when she realised that outlook made her vulnerable to use by those she hated, she took a look at the world view that everyone matters and developed a theory as to why that was. She then built her ethics system around that idea out of scrap and bubblegum and has spent every day since compiling more and more information that fits into that world view in order to strengthen both the view itself and the ethics system around it.

The cult preyed on vulnerable people? An ideal society would protect the vulnerable.

Many of the vulnerable people were homeless, or low earners? In an ideal society it wouldn't matter how much you made, you would always have a home and protection.

Idea after idea formed in opposition to what she saw, to what she experienced.

In an ideal world, there would be some way that even someone like her could contribute.

(In an ideal world, someone like her would not exist.) ]
by_candlelight: (Default)

[personal profile] by_candlelight 2020-05-05 05:10 am (UTC)(link)
An ethics system built upon vagueness is easy to manipulate, so I tried to make it as specific as I could while still giving myself some room to breathe. It also made a lot of sense that all beings have the right to do what they feel necessary to stay alive. If animals have that right, why wouldn't humans? Anyway, I'm glad you don't think I'm crazy for it, or think that I'm a psychopath or something because I had to apply logic to all of this instead of just... Feeling it, like most people feel their systems.

I think that there's something broken in my brain is all. I can feel emotions that classify as 'happy', but not the state of being known as happiness. And I have some pretty strong evidence to suggest that even my 'happy' emotions aren't as strong as those most people have. But I'm okay with that. Content is good enough for me, so that's my personal emotional goal.
by_candlelight: (Default)

[personal profile] by_candlelight 2020-05-10 09:26 am (UTC)(link)
[ Ah, and that earns a smile. ]

I mean, to be fair. I'm a waitress, and I want to some day do something with zoos, or animal conservation or something, so if all goes well I don't be going into government work, unless the government suddenly takes and interest in such things.
by_candlelight: (Default)

[personal profile] by_candlelight 2020-05-13 05:32 am (UTC)(link)
That makes so much more sense.

[ Not only is she from a different culture, but she's from a culture with a near completely different set of sayings. She was bound to miss this one. ]

Not yet. I plan to start doing that this year though. I have another two or three years of school here, so I think it's okay it took me a while to get on that.
by_candlelight: (Default)

[personal profile] by_candlelight 2020-06-11 10:39 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah... I'm hoping permanently, for myself. I've been getting as much feedback from my teachers and bosses, and even some sorta-friends I have, so that I'll be able to figure out what I need to do to meet my goals. I figure that I should act both as though I'll be staying here permanently and that I might be ported out any day.

I don't want to be left flailing around with nothing to do when I'm an adult.